Technically speaking, since black is the absence of all color and white is all of the colors together, doesn’t that make white people the ultimate POC’s and black people Persons of no color?
tw: rape mention, incest
I’m not certain why there is so much resistance to the idea that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys’ children, tbh? The major stuff i’ve read that aimed to disprove that theory actually focused on Tywin and Joanna being totes in love and how Joanna would never cheat and how if Aerys raped her obviously she would tell Tywin, but none of that disproves anything, or holds any water. From the way the text implies Aerys treated Joanna and the way Tywin treats Tyrion, it seems to me that we are meant to know Tywin thinks Tyrion is the son of Aerys, by way of Aerys raping Joanna. I know that most of the fandom is like, “But he’s ableist towards Tyrion, that’s why.” And, uh? In Westeros it is believed that Tyrion’s dwarfism is a sign that the gods are displeased with Tywin. It is really not surprising to me that Tywin would take that, combined with the fact that Joanna died birthing him, as evidence there. Idk, that… makes sense.
Of course, Tyrion’s not. I don’t understand why people think that, except that a lot of people think he’s the third head of the dragon and the other two heads are Targaryens and it does make some sense with how fandom logic operates that only a Targaryen could ride a dragon or w/e. It makes no narrative sense. It wouldn’t offer Tyrion anything but confusion. Hey, this asshole’s not your dad - but this other guy was, who was, arguably, as bad or worse, and you ARE the embodiment of terrible things happening to your mom! Like… no, it doesn’t work.
But Cersei and Jaime….. I’m not saying I think this must be the case, so much as, if it were revealed to be, I wouldn’t actually be surprised.
The fact that Tywin seems to suspect this about Tyrion (and again, i know why other people don’t think that’s why Tywin says stuff like “you are no son of mine” but I sort of feel it’s what we’re meant to think? it could be a GRRM red herring, but I think we’re intended to get the impression) to me gives credence to the fact that Joanna could have been raped by Aerys at some point. It’s not like we don’t know he was a rapist.
The relationship between Tyrion and Tywin is at the heart of Tyrion’s story. But the relationship between Jaime and Aerys is at the heart of Jaime’s story. The dramatic irony alone makes the notion sort of suspicious. If this were true, it would mean:
- Tywin spent the last twenty years relying on Jaime to be his heir even after Jaime became a member of the Kingsguard and couldn’t possibly be - Tyrion was Tywin’s heir by law, but Tywin wouldn’t see it. If Tyrion was his only legitimate son, by their laws, Jaime would never have been in the running, and Tywin still rejected him.
- Also, the reason Aerys made him a member of the Kingsguard, as Jaime quickly learned, was to take Tywin’s heir from him - not knowing he had already done that.
- The crime Jaime committed, of which he is so proud, was Kingslaying and kinslaying - the latter crime is not one he actually wants to commit.
- Jaime would have killed his father just as his brother Tyrion killed his.
Also, remember that Jaime doesn’t have the complicated relatioship with Tywin in the books that they gave him on the show. Until Tywin coldly goes “okay fine don’t be my son then” (lol), they get along pretty decently. Jaime doesn’t think about him a lot, except that he doesn’t care that much that Tywin would be disgusted to know about him and Cersei. Making Tywin not his biological father doesn’t really affect his world much either way - but making Aerys his father would seriously fuck with him.
For Cersei, it’s different. Like Tyrion, though not to as deep an extent, she wanted Tywin’s approval, and his leave to make her own decisions. However, most of Cersei’s arc is about her assuming one thing is true, and realizing, too late, that she had always been wrong about it. So here is some dramatic irony that would reflect on her if this were true:
- Her son Joffrey is raised a Baratheon, yet Robert isn’t really his father, and Cersei raises him as much a Lannister as a Baratheon, even to the point of having him use a Lannister cloak to garb his bride at his wedding, to the point of having her Lannister sigil on his shield. This would reflect on Cersei’s own birth: she is a Lannister, but only through her mother’s side. The father had been cuckolded.
- Though the circumstances would be reversed - happily married and preyed upon by an outsider versus marital rape and an extramarital lover of her choosing - Cersei and Joanna would be mirror images of each other.
- Cersei genuinely wanted to marry Rhaegar. When she was instead married to Robert, she took her brother as her lover. Both of these men were her brothers, in this hypothesis, and Cersei has never loved someone who wasn’t. This reflects on her thoughts about Taena; she says it’s “no good” and had never been good with anyone but Jaime, yet she did truly want to be Rhaegar’s bride.
- Aerys rejected Cersei as a bride for Rhaegar basically to spite Tywin, because he was a petty motherfucker. Yet if Viserys has been a girl, he would have married Rhaegar to one of his sisters - he instead had to seek out a non-Targaryen bride for him. There was a bride of Targaryen blood, a sister to Rhaegar who wanted to marry him, right there, and she was passed over.
And of course, think of every time Jaime and Cersei have a conversation like,
Jaime: We should get married. The Targaryens wed brother to sister for centuries-
Cersei: WE! ARE NOT! TARGARYENS!
I’m pretty sure it happens at least twice.
This reflects on their central conflicts: Jaime’s loathing of Aerys and the way he is perceived as a result of killing him, combined with his mixed feelings about Rhaegar, whose wife and children he did not protect, is only heightened in this hypothetical universe. He has dreamt of his mother, but his father rarely occurs to him, except as part of a world he rejected when he was 15 and will not return to. (And god, Jaime’s hatred of Aerys for raping Rhaella… just the thought of him realizing he was conceived by Aerys raping his mother Joanna makes me feel awful.) Unlike Tyrion, Jaime’s Lannister-ness is pretty rarely a part of who he is, apart from always paying his debts and so on. Jaime’s proud of who he is, but it’s not that pride that would make this reveal devastating to him.
Cersei, on the other hand, is much more tied to being a Lannister than her twin is - in patriarchal Westeros, clinging to her family name is a hugely deviant thing from a woman who’s been married, as we see when we compare her to Catelyn. (Who is still a Tully at heart, but a Stark by law; she will not dishonor her family by clinging to it.) Unlike Tyrion or Jaime, though, Cersei’s central conflict is that the more fiercely she believes something, and acts on it, the more you know she’s probably wrong. Cersei’s been destroyed by a prophecy she heard as a young girl, and we know that everytime she seizes on some aspect her life as fulfilling that prophecy, she’s wrong, and even fulfilling the prophecy herself (as Jaime is clearly the valonqar and her actions in persecuting Margaery led to their total breakup). The more Cersei insists she is not a Targaryen, and the more Cersei identifies herself as a Lannister, the more you know it’s probably not true.
Or, maybe you don’t know. I am admittedly baffled at how, if this were true, we would ever learn that it were. (I feel similarly about R+L=J though. How are we going to find that out??) And “it heightens the themes and makes everything fucking ironic and sad” isn’t actually proof of anything, even in GRRM’s world, by any means. (And also… I know how much this fandom hates “secret targ” theories. Sorry!) For me, this all started as a joke in response to “Tyrion is Aerys’ son!”, along the lines of “omg no if anyone is really Aerys’ kids it’s obviously the twins” and then swiftly turned into, “…oh no that makes sense and is totally set up in the books”.
I’m not married to this theory, but let me just say that if it were to be revealed, it would certainly have a foundation built up in the books to stand on.
wow that post rubbed me the wrong way
yes. tractors. so inherently suggestive of decay and moral turpitude and dark family secrets and not just the idea that some people work on farms for a living -__-
MAN i love anything and everything gothic americana like think about southwestern gothic with flickering motel lights and thieves and snakes hiding in sunset deserts, but also new england gothic with deep dark woods and bodies sunk into the bottom of freezing lakes, and appalachian gothic with dirty-feet tangle-haired children and small crumbling houses and the wind whistling eerily, and even midwest gothic with lonely tractors rusting away in the sunlight and endless plains and plains of vast nothingness as far as the eye can see, florida gothic (old bones sunk into the swamp), wisconsin gothic (the town’s been snowed in for weeks now, who knows what’s happening up there), california gothic (they don’t call ‘em ghost towns for nothing), colorado gothic (something’s living up in those mountains and it only comes out at night) and of course southern gothic to rule them all, a landscape of witchery, poverty, hellfire and damnation
I think you’re confusing “gothic” with the broader and more inclusive range of horror
what makes Southern Gothic gothic isn’t that it’s all horror stories, and in fact a lot of Southern Gothic stories aren’t horror stories so much as psychological dramas
it’s not the ghosts and monsters and spookiness, it’s the sense of human decadence (in both senses of the word) behind a crumbling veneer of inherently corrupt pseudo-nobility or prescribed social charms? and frankly, that’s best handled by writers who are actually from the south
even just the “witchery, poverty, hellfire and damnation” comment makes me “uhhhh” tbh because that seems less like a description of the genre and more like an earnestly, excitedly condemnatory comment on the region as a whole
(and the Appalachian Gothic thing you’re proposing here is just gross classist nonsense tbh)
idk how to even word it really but this post just makes me really uncomfortable, it’s a bad mixture of regional sterotyping and blunt descriptors of what’s already there and isn’t inherently weird or decadent or unsettling and classist associations of rural areas with horror and then just mundane misunderstanding of why they call Southern Gothic that in the first place
(also like… why did you go to ghost towns for California when you can in fact really easily transplant a lot of the general milieu of Southern Gothic to Los Angeles. Like, Sunset Boulevard is an excellent example of hypothetical Beverly Hills Gothic.)